The Lindy Slam with Frankie
Last weekend was the Lindy Slam workshop with Frankie Manning. Simon, Kelli, Carlene and myself went together. For those of you who've never been to a swing dance workshop, it includes various classes and a couple dances each night.
The weekend began with Frankie Manning telling stories for an hour. Frankie Manning was born in 1914, and grew up while Lindy Hop was still in the development stages. He is currently 90 YEARS OLD and is still an incredible dancer. Better yet, he is one of the best Lindy Hoppers (sp?) in history. He showed us some clips when he was in his 20's - MAN, the speed at which his feet moved on the dance floor was amaazzzing. We were honored to listen to his stories for an hour Friday night. When Frankie finished his story time, we danced in the ASU ballroom until midnight. That night none of us had eaten dinner and were starving, so we decided to go look for a place to eat. We ended up fulfilled prophecy that night: You don't go to Denny's, you end up there
Saturday was filled with classes. From 10am until 5:30pm we were working hard. Most of our classes were Lindy classes - if you didn't know this, I have a passion for Lindy Hop. I want to get good at Lindy. I will practice Lindy =). Before the dance that night, I went home, took a shower, then came back to dance the night away until 12:30am.
I met a lot of great people, danced with a lot of girls, and came away with much more experience. I'm that much more addicted to swing dancing.
Pics from the weekend!!!
posted by rustypth @ 9:41 PM
11 comments
11 Comments:
Just wondering - how does a Christian maintain purity of thought during an activity such as swing dancing, what with the pretty close physical contact with the opposite sex and all? (not to mention visual stimulation?) I can't speak from personal experience, but I know that for me, even viewing the activity on TV, my thoughts are drawn to things which are, shall we say, less than wholesome.
I know there may be some debate about its context, but "It is good for a man not to touch a woman" (I Cor 7:1) has always made me think carefully about such situations.
There are appropriate and innappropriate ways to dance. To be blunt about it, I don't do things that I feel cross the line.
Concerning swing dancing: East Coast Swing, Lindy Hop and Charleston are the dances I do. The only place your hands should be are on her back, arms, shoulders and waist. If this causes one to stumble, dancing probably isn't for you =).
You are correct that 1 Cor 7:1 should be interpreted within its own context. Paul is talking about marriage, and that it is good for a man to remain as he was: single. But because of burnings within men and women, it is better to get married than to stumble into temptations and sin.
Anywho, I'm glad I helped encourage you to create your own blog =)
Rusty
Well, thanks to you I have learned a few things about swing dancing. I even went out to a couple of sites and read up on the differences between 6 count, 8 count, and Charleston. So I take it the following is not a representative component of Lindy Hop?
http://davidnash.blogspot.com/2005/01/swing-dancing.html
(is there a way to embed links in comments?)
I am at least a little encouraged.
However, if you will permit me to probe a little further.... In your post you speak of placing your hands on a woman’s back, arms, shoulder, and waist. (Presumably there are times of close bodily contact as well.) Do you view this as entirely permissible and innocent contact between a man and woman who are not married?
I wonder what reactions you would have to the following scenarios:
1. In time, God blesses you with a wonderful Christian wife, a real gem – Prov 31 personified. The two of you attend a swing dance event, the two of you dancing together, as well as you with other women, she with other men. Would that give you any concerns? Should she have any problem with that?
2. You are at a swing dance event and who should show up but your Pastor and his wife. They have a great time, doing the above activities. Would you view that as in any way inappropriate, out of place, at odds with the high calling of a Pastor?
3. Similar situation as above, but substitute your parents. How would you feel about your Father dancing with other women, your Mother with other men?
I’ll admit, Swing Dancing looks like it would be a lot of fun, and great exercise to boot. You are correct that I probably could not participate in this activity without violating my conscience. But in this case I believe my conscience to be educated by some fairly straightforward Biblical principals: fleeing youthful lusts (I Cor 6:18), not defrauding a brother (I Thess 4:6), avoiding every kind of evil (I Thess 5:22). Can you honestly say that these principals are upheld in your embracing of this activity? (I do not issue this statement lightly or harshly, but with genuine concern for a younger brother in the faith.) I would urge you not to underestimate the deceitfulness of the heart of man (Jer 17:9).
Well, it’s late and I’d better be getting on. Yes, I’ve started a blog – I don’t know if I will succeed in having content that others will be interested in reading. I do enjoy browsing the blogs of others – Dr. White in particular. Lots of useful stuff.
David (aka mgoblue)
David,
I’m delighted you have taken some time to read up on swing dancing.
Regarding the picture you linked to – yes, ariels (sp?) can be done in Lindy Hop. Though it isn’t something that is common at social dances, because it usually requires practice with your partner.
You asked me whether I believe it is okay to touch your partner in the proper place(s) in order to dance with them? Yes I do, otherwise I wouldn’t be dancing =)
Would I allow my future wife to dance with other men? Certainly. In social dances however I would be a bit cautious as to who she dances with. For example, if I know someone to be a bit inappropriate with his partners, I would watch out for her well being, even as I currently watch out for my female friends.
I would not have a problem if my elders (and each of their wives) swing danced.
I’ve actually encouraged my parents to swing dance, and no I would not have a problem with them dancing with other partners.
As far as fleeing youthful lusts, avoiding evil, etc etc, it appears that if you were to be consistent, all forms of dancing would be inappropriate, and not just swing dancing. Next, I point out that you likewise assume that dancing causes everyone to stumble. Dancing is not intrinsically immoral. Social dances are meant for exercise, conversation, and having an enjoyable time.
You certainly have the right not to dance. But I have the right to dance. Neither of us should frown upon the other because of his conviction. Dancing to me is just that: dancing, and nothing more. People do not get aroused from dancing, they have fun (at least the circles I hang around).
I respect your right to hold the conviction that dancing is immoral (though I do not respect the conviction itself), but I don’t believe your conviction can be pressed upon others. =)
Btw, have we met? Do you visit #prosapologian?
Anywho, off to bed I go
Rustyrust
Rusty,
Well, at least you appear to be consistent in your position ;)
I would not go so far as to say that all forms of dancing are inappropriate. It would be my view that most modern forms of dancing, in particular the “closed” forms (if I have my terminology right) are at best unwise and at worst, suggestive and sensually oriented.
As I said before, I have not experienced Swing Dancing, and I’ve certainly never seen first hand the particular social dance environment in which your participate. I do remember from my dating days the thrill of even the mild forms of physical contact that you describe. And for me, the sight of a woman dancing to that style of music does not promote a wholesome thought life, especially when combined with certain styles of dress – short skirts that flair up, tight-fitting clothing, etc. So it’s a fairly easy call for me.
And I would not assume that dancing causes everyone to stumble – though I do suspect that many underestimate its effect, especially when combined with many popular music styles. But if you say that for you it is all exercise and no arousal, well, what argument can I make against that?
I wonder if a difference in philosophy may partly be in play here. I note from your web site that you have had some involvement in youth ministries. When you deal with the subject of physical contact in dating relationships, how do you present it? Do you say to teens, “there are certain actions that are ok – holding hands, … up to …, and that’s where you draw the line. Feel free to enjoy yourself up to that line – just don’t cross it!” Or do you say to them, “God has designed men and women to be strongly attracted to each other, and these desires are stronger than you may realize. A hands-off approach is safest – and best.” I know that for my two girls – when they reach the appropriate age – the latter will be my counsel. I believe that certain passages in Song of Solomon (2:7, for instance) hint at this. I also believe that there is some wisdom in the recent resurgence or courtship over dating, as in such books as “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”.
I have popped in on #prosapologian a few times – but probably not often enough to cross paths with you. A slightly more likely possibility is the 2003 apologetics cruise? Unfortunately, I did not meet as many folks as I would have liked to on the cruise because 1) my wife was seasick during some of the main sessions, 2) our dinner seating happened to be away from the rest of the group, and 3) I was misinformed that the theology talks were at the small pool, not the main one :o
I actually happened across your blog when I was able to access aomin this weekend. Do you know if the site is temporarily down?
-David
David,
It is my pleasure to agree with you on a couple things: (1) I appreciate many aspects of the Courtship model (as you may have noticed from my previous blog entry) and tend to lean towards that perspective of dating. (2) I also agree that skirts flying up in the air, and tight clothing is inappropriate. And (3) As a man, I must protect what my eyes take in.
I assume that by “closed” forms of dancing, you refer to dancing where you face your partner? If this is to be deemed inappropriate because of any sort of physical contact, how can “non-closed” dancing be appropriate if it involves any physical contact? If it is simply the facing of your partner that is considered sexual in nature, I suppose that with that kind of logic, friends or couples ought not ever hug one another, or stand close by?
When I served with the youth ministry at my former church, my co-leader and myself did spend some time discussing when and how to date. We told our small group of junior high boys (now in high school!) that they should not date until they were ready for marriage, which naturally excluded dating in junior high and high school. The dating standards we presented to them are considered old fashioned by many: draw a clear line, and be careful not to come close to it. The boundary that my co-leader and I affirm, allows holding hands and hugging. The boys were not overly thrilled with what we had to say, but at least they heard us =). Practically speaking, I have adopted this model. I know my limitations... what I can handle. I better stay far enough away from the line so I can protect myself and the girl.
For further support, I should note that my parents, elders, and close friends likewise affirm these limitations are Biblical and appropriate. By the way, I’ve read a few of Joshua Harris’ books, and have a few friends who attend his church in MD. What a small world.
It appears to me that our discussion comes down to Christian liberty and freedom. For example, I have a friend who will never drive or walk down Mill Ave. (the happening part of town in the East Valley in AZ) because he would stumble at the sight of scandalously dressed girls and women. I found this peculiar because girls on Mill Ave. dress like girls do everywhere else in public! If I followed my friend’s logic, he should not go anywhere girls are dressed scandalously – which is nearly every public place. In case you were wondering if I continued to go to Mill Ave., yes I did. Simply because my friend stumbled walking through that downtown area, did not mean then that other Christian people shouldn’t.
Now let’s briefly consider swing dancing. Because dancing in a “closed” position may cause you to stumble, does not necessarily mean it causes me to stumble, or the many many many other brothers and sisters in Christ I know personally who participate in our social dances. Out of courtesy I wouldn’t ask you join me week after week, knowing it was a stumbling block to you. But for those that it is not a stumbling block, we may enjoy having a good time dancing with friends.
I was on the 2003 and 2004 cruise. I wonder if we met. I have pics posted from both on my homepage: http://www.rustypth.com.
The site will occasionally go down, but normally functions properly.
Thanks for the discussion.
Rusty
Rusty,
Do *I* have to educate *you* on the terminology of dancing? ;)
open position = dancing apart holding hands facing each other
closed position = dancing close together with hands in ballroom position
Here are a few quotes that I found on the web:
“It was that most daring of all dances, the waltz, that created quite a stir when it was introduced, for it permitted the gentleman to hold his partner in close embrace as they moved about the floor. That position, which we now call closed dance position, was known for many years as the waltz position.”
“Until the Waltz became popular, the aristocracy danced with their partners in an open position. The closed position (with the partners face to face and holding each other close) caused uproar, thought by many to be immoral and obscene. By the late 1800’s the waltz was generally accepted by polite society, and eventually many more closed partner dances, such as the foxtrot and the tango, were to follow.”
“Lindy Hop, or Lindy for short, is the granddaddy of all swing dances. Originating in the 1920's, Lindy Hop has its roots in the Charleston, a closed position dance done to the popular Charleston music of the time….The dance evolved into a 8-count sequence (2 bars of ‘common’ time or 4/4 music) where it involved both being in ‘closed’ and ‘open’ positions.”
That is what I was referring to in my comment about “closed” forms of dancing. Does that make my objection any more reasonable?
I don’t know how things are out west, but in the southeast (the “Bible Belt”, if you will), there are a lot of churches – some Baptist, some AOG, some charismatic – which are very “touchy-feely”. You visit the lobby when people are coming or going, and everyone is hugging everyone else. In the church I attend the people are much more reserved in that respect, and I think that’s wise. We display much affection for immediate family members, but for our brothers and sisters in Christ a hearty handshake works great.
I believe we are close to clarification (if not agreement) on the major issues under discussion. I hesitate to place all this under heading of “Christian liberty” because the term is so often misused and applied far too broadly (and if we ever get into a discussion on that, I fear it will never end!). There are clear prohibitions/proscriptions in scripture as well as clear principals, the application of which – let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind (Rom 14:5), as he submits to his spiritual authority (Heb 13:17). We will all give an account to God.
aomin.org still not up – I am going through Dividing Line withdrawal.
Later…
-David
Thanks for your clarification.
No, it does not make your objection any more valid.
Out here in the Wild West, there are a decent number of churches. I myself am a Reformed Baptist and attend the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. We are not charismatic in personality or theology, and I would say we are pretty reserved when it comes to physical contact. When we greet one another, we typically use handshakes. I’m not sure if you implying that I might be a ‘touchy feely’ person? No, I really am not. But when it comes to dancing, I find no reasonable objection (Biblical or otherwise) not to be close to a partner.
I would agree with you that Christian Liberty is sometimes used as a way out to defend ungodly behavior, or simply end a discussion. Notice that that has not been my intent from the beginning. I am persuaded that there are certain things Christians will not agree on. You have strong convictions on this matter. So do I. We both believe the other’s convictions are wrong. I however would not accuse your convictions as sinful, so long as they are not being placed upon others. In the same manner, I will respect your right as a Christian to hold convictions, even though I might disagree with them.
At this point, we will probably be going in circles. I appreciate your thoughts.
http://www.aomin.org is working for me. You may want to try a different web browser, or contact your isp if the problem continues.
God bless brother,
Rusty
Ooops – I really did not mean to imply anything negative about you or about your church. I only meant to point out that in broad Christian circles today there are broad views held as to what level of open affection is appropriate.
Also, please do not mistake my queries for an assumption or judgment of wrong (sinful?) convictions on your part. At the end of the day, I freely grant you the right to hold your convictions on this matter. I just wanted to get a sense of where you were coming from, and whether you had thought through some relevant issues. I applaud your defense, although I suspect neither of us has moved far from our original thesis.
May we both come out on the same side of the next discussion ;)
God bless, my brother
-David
aomin probelm solved - the answer was (drum roll)...
...the DNS server of my ISP was not mapping to the correct network route for aomin.org. (Personally, I suspect an FBI plot!) With an alternate DNS address supplied by tech support I'm back in business.
Now to catch up on the latest since my absence...
hehe
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