Tuesday, March 28, 2006

Illegal Immigration Rights

“Immigration rights advocates more than 500,000 strong marched in downtown Los Angeles, demanding that Congress abandon attempts to make helping illegal immigrants a crime and to build more walls along the border.

The massive demonstration, one of half dozen around the nation in recent days, came as President Bush prodded Republican congressional leaders to give some illegal immigrants a chance to work legally in the U.S. under certain conditions.” (FNN; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189110,00.html).


Among the thousands of demonstrators protesting across the nation, Arizona had its fair share. Approximately 15,000 marched in downtown Phoenix (creating not a small traffic problem for morning and evening rush hour traffic =)). Many were carrying American flags. Many were carrying Mexican flags. The crowds were made up of legal and illegal immigrants protesting the recent legislation that passed in the House of Representatives. If the law is passed in the Senate, it would make illegally entering the United States a felony and also have a wall built along one-third of the US-Mexican border.

Sounds like decent legilsation, doesn’t it? Congress has heard the cry of the American people who want our borders and our way of life protected. Raising the severity of illegally entering the United States to felony status is something we should have done a long time ago. The same can be said of protecting our border. The purpose of this new law would be to enforce the current laws of the land.

Let me make an obvious point: we have laws in this country for a reason. It is expected that laws should be obeyed. Laws should be respected by citizens … and aliens.

So let me ask a question to those who justify the crimes of illegal aliens: Why does the USA restrict the number of citizenships granted each year? I think the answer is obvious, BUT just in case it isn’t obvious to you … if we had an open border granting citizenship to anyone and everyone who wanted it, we’d have 50 million people move to the United States within the first year. We simply can’t have that. It would be devastating to our economy, culture, language, and security.

What do the protestors want? Well, assuming that there isn’t complete unity among the thousands upon thousands of protestors spread across the nation, there is probably a range of things on their agenda. First, it is clear that they don’t want the legislation passed, which means they don’t want illegally entering the U.S. to be a felony, and they certainly don’t want a wall built along the border. The unmistakable reason why illegal aliens don’t want the legislation to pass in the Senate is because they would then be felons. Second, many want us to continue turning a blind eye to their illegal presence in the United States. Third, others demand amnesty for the estimated 11 million already here.

Does it strike anyone else as odd that illegal aliens would demand citizenship? Who are they to demand anything from the United States Government? Illegals choose a criminal and sinful lifestyle from the moment they illegally set one foot on American soil. But their criminality doesn’t end with entering the United States. If they want to successfully remain in our nation they must do a number of things to avoid getting caught: lying to the authorities, purchasing fake I.D.’s, getting a job, tax fraud, using public services, and the list goes on.

Did you catch how Foxnews (and the rest of the Mainstream Media) refers to this whole debate? “Immigration rights.” Isn’t that term a bit misleading? An immigrant is one that permanently moves from one nation to another. Unfortunately this isn’t specific enough, because it fails to deal with the legality of the immigrants’ transplanting to a new country. A more proper term to define this debate would be: “Illegal Immigration Rights.”

You know what I’m going to ask next don’t you? What rights do non-citizens have with regards to American policy? They have no rights toward our policy! They don’t have the right to demand citizenship. Citizenship in the United States is a priviledge, one that the Federal government does not have to grant to anyone.

“Elger Aloy, 26, of Riverside, a premed student, pushed a stroller with his 8-month-old son at Saturday's Los Angeles march and called the legislation "inhumane." "Everybody deserves the right to a better life," he said.” (FNN; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189110,00.html).

What is Elger’s presupposition here? “Everybody deserves the right to a better life” (emphasis mine). Elger seems to imply that people can just move wherever they want, legally or illegally, so they can find a better life. He believes that it is morally acceptable to break the law in hopes of finding a better life. He has concluded that every human being has a natural right to a better life. I wonder how Elger defines “better life”? I would venture a guess that he refers to economic prosperity, and not to happiness.

“"They say we are criminals. We are not criminals," said Salvador Hernandez, 43, of Los Angeles, a resident alien who came to the United States illegally from El Salvador 14 years ago and worked as truck driver, painter and day laborer” (FNN; http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,189110,00.html).

What makes someone a criminal Salvador? Because if you believe that a criminal is one who commits serious crime(s), would you not fit into that category sir? Here is a common argument made by Illegal Immigrant Rights Advocates (isn’t it wonderful having a proper name for the movement =)): “Illegal Immigrants are the backbone of our society. They do jobs that most Americans consider to be beneath them…” Let’s look at each of the jobs Salvador Hernandez has done over the past 14 years. He was a truck driver, painter, and a day laborer. Are you telling me that there are no Americans willing to do these jobs? I have two friends who are truck drivers – both white, Christian, males. My old high school pastor used to be a painter – also a white, Christian male. How about day laborers? Since my dad is a general superintendent for the largest framing company in AZ, our family knows of many legal Americans willing to do that kind of work (in the Arizona heat no less). The belief that illegals do jobs that Americans won’t do is just plain fiction.

The only arguments that encourage us to turn a blind eye to the 11 million criminals living in our nation are emotional arguments. The liberals making these sympathetic yet baseless arguments are thinking of short-term fixes. But what LONGTERM effects will we have if we continue to ignore this growing problem? Will Mexico become economically stable by allowing more Mexicans to move to the U.S.?

Illegal Immigrants Rights Advocate: “But we need to do something to help them!” I agree. But the solution to solving Mexican poverty (or poverty around the world) is not by having people pack their bags and move to the U.S. What should we do? We can encourage the Mexican people to elect a non-corrupt government for starters. We’ll see where we go from there.

When emotionalism is brushed aside, you cannot pretend that illegal aliens aren’t lawbreakers. When you break the law, you pay the price. That is why illegals don’t want this latest bit of legislation to pass, because their sins and their crimes would finally catch up with them. They’re trying to further suppress God’s Law, which includes obeying the laws of the land.

I pray that this law is passed in the Senate. The Senate will be discussing it today. Pray that our Senators and our President would make a decision seasoned with wisdom.

Casey

18 Comments:

At 3:39 AM, Blogger rustypth said...

Scott! Your first blog comment ever! w00t

 
At 6:41 AM, Blogger Amy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 6:42 AM, Blogger The Paasch-inator said...

Hmmm...
I wrote my most recent entry on this very subject...
although, perhaps, with a slightly different take. :)

 
At 7:01 AM, Blogger The Paasch-inator said...

After reading "Illegal Immigration Rights", I’m afraid I can’t see the issue - or this latest bit of legislation - in the same light, Casey. You said, and I quote, ‘you cannot pretend that illegal aliens aren’t lawbreakers. When you break the law, you pay the price. That is why illegals don’t want this latest bit of legislation to pass, because their sins and their crimes would finally catch up with them. They’re trying to further suppress God’s Law, which includes obeying the laws of the land.’ Perhaps there is, somewhere out there, an alien who deliberately crossed the border because of his aversion to law and his desire to sin. However, after working for 4 and a half years at a local Hispanic mission among them, I have yet to meet one. May I remind you of the reasons that America was first populated - immigrants came by the thousands from Europe seeking resources, seeking a way to support their families, and freedom from the oppression of corrupt government. The same reasons that motivated the first European inhabitants of our country to come here motivates these aliens today. Their illegal immigration is wrong - yes. After years of experience among these people, I know what drives them: the desire to support families, working for wages that actually CAN. You don’t have to convince me that their illegal crossing of the border is wrong - this I know. But I DO believe that we should not keep barring them out merely because we are so caught up in the fact that thousands are coming illegally - in fact, after a semester of research on the subject, I have found that there is almost no possible way for any unskilled worker to obtain a worker Visa here, let alone citizenship! Citizenship should not be so restricted that we keep out the very immigrants who actually aid our economy far more than they detract from it.

I have expounded my beliefs on the issue to a greater extent in my latest post.

In Him,
Hannah Paasch

 
At 9:46 AM, Blogger Hobster said...

It doesn't matter their motivation. Good, bad, indifferent. If our laws mean nothing, if our borders mean nothing, the idea of The United States of America means nothing. It's just that simple. (which, incidentally seems to be what many of the protesters are going for)

Even if they help the economy--who cares? Rule of Law is Rule of Law. As Christians we're to support and submit to that. Period. End of discussion.

 
At 9:49 AM, Blogger Hobster said...

and please, please note that "Even if." I don't buy it...absolutely don't buy it. And for the record, 1/3-1/2 of my co-workers are here and working illegally. Keeping my fellow citizens and taxpayers from having those jobs, incidentally. I see plenty of damage done to the economy every day.

Work ethics don't matter when the rest of ethics are thrown out.

 
At 10:41 AM, Blogger rustypth said...

Hello Hannah,

Now how did I know you had a different opinion =)

I will do my best to respond to your thoughts and comments …

“Perhaps there is, somewhere out there, an alien who deliberately crossed the border because of his aversion to law and his desire to sin. However, after working for 4 and a half years at a local Hispanic mission among them, I have yet to meet one.”

Doesn’t every illegal alien desire to avoid the law and American authorities? Why do they deliberately avoid the law and American authorities? Because they know illegally entering is wrong. They know they are breaking the law, and that it is sinful. If they lie themselves into believing that their actions are not morally wrong it is because they have suppressed the truth and Law of God in unrighteousness.

“May I remind you of the reasons that America was first populated - immigrants came by the thousands from Europe seeking resources, seeking a way to support their families, and freedom from the oppression of corrupt government. The same reasons that motivated the first European inhabitants of our country to come here motivates these aliens today.”

The Americas during the 15th century did not have any recognized government, so to compare European settlers to Mexicans illegally entering the United States is not a fair comparison. Spain claiming land and resources “for God and country” is not comparable to Mexicans illegally crossing the border. A nation claiming undeclared land is morally acceptable. Neither is Puritans seeking deliverance from religious oppression. As far as I know, Protestants in Mexico are not beheaded for denying the Roman system. Even Pilgrims seeking economic prosperity doesn’t come close to Mexicans breaking the law by entering a foreign nation illegally. The Pilgrim’s formed colonies under the rule of European governments – and it was done legally. By direct contrast, illegal aliens enter America illegally.

“Their illegal immigration is wrong - yes. After years of experience among these people, I know what drives them: the desire to support families, working for wages that actually CAN. You don’t have to convince me that their illegal crossing of the border is wrong - this I know. But I DO believe that we should not keep barring them out merely because we are so caught up in the fact that thousands are coming illegally”

Whatever their desire is, they are still lawbreakers. Whatever their intentions, they are still lawbreakers. Your entire argument is clouded by the fact that illegal aliens are criminals and have no respect for the laws of our land. When you said, “You don’t have to convince me that their illegal crossing of the border is wrong - this I know,” what did you mean? Do you really believe that illegally crossing the border is morally wrong? If so, then do you believe that our laws should be obeyed? If your answer is yes, then I’m confused about what we are arguing about? Because you can’t have it both ways – one either agrees that our laws should be obeyed, or one disagrees that our laws should be obeyed.

Next, however long the process is to become a U.S. citizen, that process is to be respected and honored. Illegal aliens make a mockery of our laws every year as hundreds of thousands flock to America. They have no respect for our citizenship process. They have no respect for our laws. They are lawbreakers from the moment they set foot on American soil. Furthermore, illegal immigration is a slap in the face to immigrants seeking citizenship legally.

“Citizenship should not be so restricted that we keep out the very immigrants who actually aid our economy far more than they detract from it.”

I directly responded to this argument in this blog entry: “What makes someone a criminal Salvador? Because if you believe that a criminal is one who commits serious crime(s), would you not fit into that category sir? Here is a common argument made by Illegal Immigrant Rights Advocates (isn’t it wonderful having a proper name for the movement =)): “Illegal Immigrants are the backbone of our society. They do jobs that most Americans consider to be beneath them…” Let’s look at each of the jobs Salvador Hernandez has done over the past 14 years. He was a truck driver, painter, and a day laborer. Are you telling me that there are no Americans willing to do these jobs? I have two friends who are truck drivers – both white, Christian, males. My old high school pastor used to be a painter – also a white, Christian male. How about day laborers? Since my dad is a general superintendent for the largest framing company in AZ, our family knows of many legal Americans willing to do that kind of work (in the Arizona heat no less). The belief that illegals do jobs that Americans won’t do is just plain fiction.”

When it is all said and done, the fact remains that illegal aliens are lawbreakers. They deserve to face the consequences. We should do everything in our power to enforce the laws of the Federal and State governments.

I hope this was beneficial for you.

In the Saving Faith of Our Lord,
Case of Base

 
At 11:12 AM, Blogger Hobster said...

Jobs Americans Won’t Do? Think Again

 
At 1:43 PM, Blogger Hobster said...

ack! Fixing the link...

Jobs Americans Won’t Do? Think again.

sorry

 
At 9:44 PM, Blogger Brent Klontz said...

Casey, I really enjoyed reading this blog since I am such a good friend of Hannah and yourself. I have read both of your blogs and I agree with points you both make.

1. (ILLEGAL) immigration is illegal . . . period.

2. As Christians, every action we do must be seasoned with salt and in love and grace.

I love Hannah's heart for this culture of people and her extreme love for the gospel and how it radically changes hearts . . . even the ILLEGAL immigrant.

However, we have laws for a reason, and no law should be broken unless it contradicts God's law. Thus, I also pray for wisdom of our politicians in making these huge decisions regarding illegal immigration. Thank you for your post brother, and Hannah, thank you for your deep love and care for this people group. In Christ, Brent

 
At 10:24 PM, Blogger Hobster said...

Heavens yes! I hope there's nothing I've said that implies we don't love them, we don't show compassion. But part of that has got to be tough love (for lack of a better term), which shows them the right thing to do!

 
At 10:32 PM, Blogger rustypth said...

I think we all seem to agree that we should love everyone - friend, enemy, citizen, illegal. That goes without saying. But that really isn't what this debate is about. The real issue is: should we allow people to illegally enter the United States and/or turn a blind eye to those who have committed this crime?

Thanks for everyone's comments thus far.

 
At 7:28 AM, Blogger The Paasch-inator said...

Thank you for that clarification, Brent, it was definitely helpful. However, there are a few points I want to address that Casey brought up:

1. I would hope to remind you that the founders of our country did NOT come to undeclared land. It was the home of the native Americans long before it was invaded by Europeans. And this is exactly how Hispanics - most especially the Mexican people - see us. We took their land (and yes, it was theirs!) during the Mexican-American War, and yet we provide absolutely no way for their legal crossing. There is virtually no possible way. Our border systems (and I have frequented them!) are a moral disgrace - making each and every immigrant seeking entrance hate us more. Do not believe that they have not attempted to cross legally. They have.

3. I am grateful for the examples you provided of Anglo friends in unskilled positions that immigrants often obtain on crossing illegally. However, these are such a minority that they are barely considered by employers seeking hard-working employees. In fact, American employers continue to seek out illegal immigrants to fill positions in landscaping, construction, and agriculture. They trim our lawns in the spring and summer, harvest our fields in the fall, and work around the clock as day laborers in the winter. They form a crucial part of the backbone of our economy, especially in the Southwestern states, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. They consider this land stolen, they have a huge pull to the states by white American employers, and the vast majority of these people are absolutely unable to fill their duty to feed and support their families on the meager wages afforded by the exact same jobs in Mexico. They do not see their immigration as sin - they do not see the American government as one they ought to serve.

Our border system does need reform - but I firmly believe that it ought to be made in favor of the immigrants seeking entry. I believe they should be able to obtain legal worker Visas to keep on with what they do already - for it is an important role.

4. Lastly, as believers, we have an opportunity, through these illegal immigrants, to reach a people that we never would have come into contact with before!Yes, there are a few solid Christian churches in Mexico and a few dedicated missionaries, but other than that, their contact with Christianity is little to none. Our citizenship is not here and now in the United States - though it may be a wonderful place to live for the few days we are here. We have a higher calling to reach these people with the love and the Gospel of Christ.

I think if you read my latest blog entry on the subject, Casey, you will gain a better understanding of my point, and, if not agree, then at least understand where I'm coming from.

In Him,
Hannah

 
At 3:57 PM, Blogger rustypth said...

Thanks for the reply Hannah,

You began by saying, “1. I would hope to remind you that the founders of our country did NOT come to undeclared land. It was the home of the native Americans long before it was invaded by Europeans.”

I chose my words very carefully in my previous response to you in case someone decided to make the argument you present above. Here is what I had written: “The Americas during the 15th century did not have any recognized government, so to compare European settlers to Mexicans illegally entering the United States is not a fair comparison. Spain claiming land and resources “for God and country” is not comparable to Mexicans illegally crossing the border. A nation claiming undeclared land is morally acceptable.” I began with the fact that during the 15th century there was not a “recognized government” in the Americas. European states didn’t have a clue that the Americas were populated with Native Americans. And even when they discovered the pagan tribes, they considered them savages and did not recognize them as acceptable civilizations. It was under these unique circumstances that Western Civilization made its presence in the New World, and trying to compare that migration with Mexicans illegally entering a civilized and well-established nation of laws, is not a fair comparison.

You continued, “And this is exactly how Hispanics - most especially the Mexican people - see us. We took their land (and yes, it was theirs!) during the Mexican-American War”

I’m not sure what your point is in bringing up the Mexican-American War? Are you suggesting that because the United States acquired what are now southwestern portions of present day America, that we ignore illegal aliens? Or that this gives them a right to “their” land? Should we give California, New Mexico and Texas to the Mexican government?

You continued, “…and yet we provide absolutely no way for their legal crossing. There is virtually no possible way.” You presuppose that non-Americans have the natural right to become American citizens or at least have temporary work-visas. I do not presuppose this. The government can grant citizenship to whomever it wants. Becoming a citizen or having the right to work in our nation is a privilege, not a natural right.

Next, you wrote, “Our border systems (and I have frequented them!) are a moral disgrace - making each and every immigrant seeking entrance hate us more.”

Our borders are a “moral disgrace”? I can only assume that you make such a charge because you mention the difficulty to (1) become an American citizen, and (2) receive a temporary work visa. But your argument refers more to immigration policy than our US-Mexican border. Next, you didn’t really mean that the timeframe and/or the difficulty to receive citizenship or a work-visa have anything to do with morality, did you? Let’s keep a proper perspective … this is a matter of opinion and politics, and not morality.

You said, “Do not believe that they have not attempted to cross legally. They have.”

Are “they” Mexicans living in Mexico, or Mexicans who have illegally entered the United States? If the former, are you implying that even if Mexicans living in Mexico have tried and failed to receive citizenship or a work-visa, they still have a natural right to enter the U.S.? If the latter, are you implying that Mexicans who tried to enter the United States legally, then enter illegally, have a natural right to be here?

You wrote, “3. I am grateful for the examples you provided of Anglo friends in unskilled positions that immigrants often obtain on crossing illegally. However, these are such a minority that they are barely considered by employers seeking hard-working employees.”

You claim that a minority of American citizens fill unskilled labor jobs, implying that the majority who fill these jobs are illegal aliens. I mentioned before that my dad is a general superintendent for one of the largest framing (construction) companies in the United States, Knipp Brothers Inc. (KBI). They only hire American citizens, or those legally in the U.S. In fact, they go out of their way to hire only those legally here. If and when an illegal is found out they are fired on the spot. KBI is only one example of how your claim is simply not true. Next, Hobster posted an article that I would suggest to you: http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry200603140822.asp

You continued, “In fact, American employers continue to seek out illegal immigrants to fill positions in landscaping, construction, and agriculture.”

Let me state it now that employers who hire Illegals should be punished for breaking the law =).

You wrote, “They trim our lawns in the spring and summer, harvest our fields in the fall, and work around the clock as day laborers in the winter. They form a crucial part of the backbone of our economy, especially in the Southwestern states, such as California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.”

I again refer to my dad’s framing company, as well as to Hobster’s article.

You said, “They consider this land stolen, they have a huge pull to the states by white American employers, and the vast majority of these people are absolutely unable to fill their duty to feed and support their families on the meager wages afforded by the exact same jobs in Mexico.”

You again mention that Mexicans believe parts of present day America was stolen from them. Why bring this up? Are you saying that this excuses Illegals from entering the country? Do you believe that their viewpoint gives them a natural right to those lands and/or America?

You continued, “They do not see their immigration as sin…”

I answered this in my previous response: “Doesn’t every illegal alien desire to avoid the law and American authorities? Why do they deliberately avoid the law and American authorities? Because they know illegally entering is wrong. They know they are breaking the law, and that it is sinful. If they lie themselves into believing that their actions are not morally wrong it is because they have suppressed the truth and Law of God in unrighteousness.”

If illegal aliens didn’t view illegal immigration as a sin, then why do they sneak in? Why do they avoid government authorities? Why do they commit fraud once they are here? Etc…

Next, you wrote, “they do not see the American government as one they ought to serve.”

I’m not sure what you mean by “serve” here, but it sounds like you could mean “submit to”?

You said, “Our border system does need reform - but I firmly believe that it ought to be made in favor of the immigrants seeking entry. I believe they should be able to obtain legal worker Visas to keep on with what they do already - for it is an important role.”

I think you meant that our immigration policy needs reform, and not our “border system”? When you wrote: “I believe they should be able to obtain legal worker Visas to keep on with what they do already,” are you arguing that illegal aliens be given temporary work-visas? If so, doesn’t this reward their criminal and sinful behavior?

You wrote, “4. Lastly, as believers, we have an opportunity, through these illegal immigrants, to reach a people that we never would have come into contact with before!Yes, there are a few solid Christian churches in Mexico and a few dedicated missionaries, but other than that, their contact with Christianity is little to none. Our citizenship is not here and now in the United States - though it may be a wonderful place to live for the few days we are here. We have a higher calling to reach these people with the love and the Gospel of Christ.”

If, in some bizarre circumstance, the Lord provided me with an opportunity to share the gospel with an illegal alien, I would take it. But I also have a responsibility as a Christian man to honor and obey the laws of our nation, and that includes respecting our laws about illegal immigration. If an employee was illegal I would fire him and report him to the INS. If I discovered someone illegally entering our country I would contact the INS. If someone that I knew was found out to be illegal, I would talk to him about turning himself in – if he refused I would contact the INS. Just as I would report one of my fellow citizens for committing a terrible crime, so I would report the terrible crime of illegally entering.

You concluded by saying, “I think if you read my latest blog entry on the subject, Casey, you will gain a better understanding of my point, and, if not agree, then at least understand where I'm coming from.”

Because I am such a faithful reader to all those on my blogroll, I actually read your entry within the first few hours of its posting =). I agree with Brent that you are well-meaning towards illegal aliens, and have good intentions. Having said that, I fail to see what your argument is, both in your blog entry, and in your comments here. You seem to suggest that we should excuse the sinful and criminal behavior of Illegals because they have it rough in Mexico, or because this is “their” land, or because they want to work here. None of these reasons validates their breaking the law. That is the real issue.

I know that I’ve asked you a zillion questions, but I look forward to your response and interaction.

In the blessed name of Christ,
Casey

 
At 9:56 PM, Blogger The Paasch-inator said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9:58 PM, Blogger The Paasch-inator said...

Well, Casey, it has taken me this long to actually get a chance to read your whole "comment" ;), and get a chance to answer it thoughtfully.

This will be my last comment, and a brief one. I believe any further discussion will be unnecessary, as this really is a nonessential issue, in the eternal scheme of things. Let me restate a few important points that I have tried to make clear.
1. I believe that the mere fact that the original native Americans of this land were "savages", as you call them, does not make the comparison any less fair. It was their land, and this land - the Southwestern United States - was once that of the Mexicans.
2. The immigration policy of our country does need reform, most definitely. But there IS morality involved - there are definite undertones of racism involved in its workings, as I have seen through the vulgar treatment of fellow Mexican believers who did cross legally. This is not in any way an assumption that there is any undercurrent of racism in your argument, however.
3. Thank you for the example of one company that does indeed hire only legal American citizens. I'm afraid this hasn't been my experience, but I am glad that there are those who hold up the laws of our land, though they may desperately need reform.
4. I am not in any way suggesting that you might ever have an opportunity to share the Gospel with an illegal alien. I have. I will continue to have them, and therefore, I am thankful to the Lord for those opportunities. This is what I meant by my last point.

I believe that these immigrants do form an important part of our economy, and I have seen them prove themselves to be so. I hope that our government will thoughtfully consider their role in our economy, and act accordingly - without discrimination. I have stated my case as plainly as I believe to be necessary, and I fully respect yours, Casey. I pray that the Lord might be glorified in our nation's decisions for legislation on the topic, and in our own behavior towards the situation.

Thank you for your thorough responses, and I will end with this: God bless!

In Him,
Hannah

 
At 9:39 AM, Blogger rustypth said...

Howdy Hannah,

“This will be my last comment, and a brief one. I believe any further discussion will be unnecessary, as this really is a nonessential issue, in the eternal scheme of things.”

Since you are politely bowing out of our discussion, I shall also be relatively brief =)

“1. I believe that the mere fact that the original native Americans of this land were "savages", as you call them,…”

Actually, I did not call them savages. Here is what I actually wrote: “And even when they discovered the pagan tribes, they considered them savages and did not recognize them as acceptable civilizations.” So I was describing how the European settlers saw the Native Americans, and not providing my own personal description.

“1. I believe that the mere fact that the original native Americans of this land were "savages", as you call them, does not make the comparison any less fair. It was their land, and this land - the Southwestern United States - was once that of the Mexicans.”

If your only line of comparison between European settlers forming colonies in the 15th century, and the Mexican-American War, is that Europeans/Americans acquired land in the Americas, then you are certainly correct. Where you are incorrect is to make the assertion that Europeans intended to steal land from unrecognized governments. Then you are incorrect that we “stole” land from Mexico – the fact is that the Mexican-American War remains a disputed topic to this day. To connect both of these mistaken assertions together is also a flaw in your argument. I again wonder what your point in bringing up (1) Europeans “stealing” land from the Native Americans, and (2) transplanted Euros “stealing” land from Mexico? If you are not arguing that this gives Mexicans natural rights to our nation, or that the U.S. should give portions of our southwest to Mexico, I don’t know what point you have been trying to make.

“2. The immigration policy of our country does need reform, most definitely. But there IS morality involved - there are definite undertones of racism involved in its workings, as I have seen through the vulgar treatment of fellow Mexican believers who did cross legally. This is not in any way an assumption that there is any undercurrent of racism in your argument, however.”

First, in our previous discussion you suggested that the timeframe it takes to receive citizenship or a work-visa in our country is a moral issue. I pointed out that it is not a moral issue but a matter of politics and opinion. For obvious reasons racism is a moral issue – but that isn’t relevant to a discussion of our border security and the enforcement of our laws.

“3. Thank you for the example of one company that does indeed hire only legal American citizens. I'm afraid this hasn't been my experience, but I am glad that there are those who hold up the laws of our land, though they may desperately need reform.”

Once again I suggest reading the article Hobster provided =)

“4. I am not in any way suggesting that you might ever have an opportunity to share the Gospel with an illegal alien. I have. I will continue to have them, and therefore, I am thankful to the Lord for those opportunities. This is what I meant by my last point.”

I am glad the Lord has provided you with many witnessing opportunities with the Mexican people. However, I pray that one day we will not have any opportunities to share the gospel with Illegals because there won’t be any Illegals in our nation. I also pray that God grants the common grace to the estimated 11 million already here to see their illegal behavior as morally wrong, and to willfully return to their native state.

“Thank you for your thorough responses, and I will end with this: God bless!”

Thank you for the clear discussion. I believe that our exchanges were a success, and that God was honored because of them. You are always welcome to comment on my blog. I look forward to hearing your future thoughts and comments =)

Serving the triune God of majesty,
Casey

 
At 2:37 PM, Blogger JJ Brenner said...

Amen, good discourse.

 

Post a Comment

<< Home